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  • in reply to: Impedance of MPX cable and adapters #10622
    Sparky
    Member

    Impedance matching is only relevant when transferring power from the driving source to a load. In the case of a broadcast transmitter output amplifier (at the connector) it is designed to have a 50 ohm source impedance. The transmitter load is an antenna with a termination value of 50 ohms resistive. In order to minimize the power transfer loss between the two devices, the conduit (aka coax) must exhibit the same impedance as the source and the load.

    Coax cable (or wave guide) at high frequencies is essentially a distributed combination of series inductors and parallel capacitors creating a "balanced out" component. Or in other terms, the series inductive reactance gets canceled out by the parallel capacitive reactance leaving only resistance as a loss component. Reactive components only store energy, where as resistive components convert energy into work (heat). So an ideal cable is essentially a lossless conduit for RF energy (think of it like a bucket brigade where no water dribbles out or is spilled). Real world cables do exhibit losses from two areas. The most significant loss is the dielectric absorption properties from the plastic, foam, or air that fills the space between the center conductor and the sheath. The other loss (minor) comes from the actual resistance of the conductor metals (copper).

    In this situation where you are connecting a soundcard mpx output to an exciter input, true impedance matching is not much of an issue for a couple of reasons.
    1. The source impedance of a sound card varies greatly depending on the brand, the output driver circuit design, and the type of output being used ie. headphone output (8-200 ohms), line output (200 ohms to several 1000’s of ohms or more).
    2. The exciter mpx input designs are mostly if not all high impedance inputs. Typically 10k ohms or more.
    3. Due to the low frequencies that make up the mpx signal (practically DC compared to 100’s or 1000’s of MHz) the series inductive component of the coax is so small it essentially provides little contribution in balancing out the parallel capacitance of the cable. In this case 50 ohm coax is nothing more than fancy shielded wire where the impedance of the cable has little relevance.

    If the sound card output and the exciter input were both 50 ohms, then yes, the cable impedance would become a factor worthy of consideration. But since this is not the case, worrying about 50 ohm connectors and cable impedance matching is a moot point.

    What you need to concentrate on most in creating a low loss connection between the soundcard output and the exciter mpx input is to keep the cable lengths as short as possible, and use the highest quality cable that exhibits the lowest capacitance per unit length (i.e. xxx pF per foot/meter).
    Using low quality cable with high distributed capacitance essentially creates a low pass filter that rolls off the higher frequency components of the mpx signal. Leif has been clever enough to design in tilt compensation to mitigate this roll-off effect (special output pre-emphasis to boost the higher mpx frequencies), but it has a finite boost range. So it’s up to you to use the best cable available that ensures the mpx signal remains properly equalized (flat) when it arrives at the exciter input.

    Note: When making sound card tilt adjustments it’s very important that you measure the mpx signal at the exciter input, not at the sound card output. Doing so allows you to compensate for the cable roll-off effects.

    in reply to: Orban step it up a gear..Is BBP up to the challenge? #9884
    Sparky
    Member

    Amusing thread. :mrgreen:

    Being one’s own boss is extremely liberating in many ways, especially mentally. However as a whole you generally work much much harder then you would for a 9-5 job. The key is to love your work so much the extra effort isn’t felt like a burden. Once you have escaped the cloth-lined cubicle prison, it’s hard to want to ever go back to a "normal" job. Plus the financial rewards are nice should you and your product become a success. Nothing like being closer to the money vs. the invisible corporate CEO taking the biggest slice of the pie that you baked with your blood and sweat.
    Personally, I find time flexibility as the biggest benefit to working for one’s self. Structuring your life around that immovable block of time working for someone else ie. "the 9-5 job" can really be depressing.

    As for living in the states, well the Bay area is a tough and expensive place to call home. Having been there done that, the novalty wears off in about 1 month. However there still are nice places to reside in the USA with out all the BS. Colorado is one of them. UT and NM are others.

    quote :

    If Bob Orban makes you a money offer to work for him… will you go ? ?!!:

    The key here is for Leif to license his sw to Orban and Omnia. This way he can let the big boys fight it out on who’s better, he can code to his hearts delight with no encumbrances, and collect cash from either team win or lose. 8)

    in reply to: Digital MPX Forum #8723
    Sparky
    Member

    Looks great. As a RF hardware engineer I can truly appreciate the work you have done and all the effort involved. 😉
    I would be curious to see what your carrier phase noise is at 1kHz, 10kHz and 100kHz offsets. If you do not want to publicly share this info send me a PM if you wish.

    Sparky

    in reply to: Best absolute quality….!!!!!!!!! #8627
    Sparky
    Member
    quote :

    But hey, I was under the impression that DDS meant there’d be no upconversion at all, that the signal was generated at the correct frequency already to begin with.

    The answer to this is yes… and no, it can be both. The design of DDS circuits are largely governed by the availability of the silicon that can clock at the appropriate rates for the final frequency of interest. Also factor in tuning resolution, cost, and power consumption will ultimately shape the overall design topology.

    in reply to: Best absolute quality….!!!!!!!!! #8621
    Sparky
    Member

    I find that the use of two PLL mixing stages to provide the RVR exciter DDS signal up conversion for FM band frequencies to be a bit unusual and an inefficient design approach.
    It’s far easier to use class C signal multiplier stages for the up conversion. Frequency doublers (or triplers or quadruplers) is a tried and true simple method to take a low frequency signal sources and make them higher. But not having taken a look at the inner workings of the RVR exciter I can’t validate the PLL up-conversion approach though.

    There is nothing wrong with PLL designs provided the loop filter is properly engineered. As a designer I have achieved PLL designs with low phase noise in the order of 110-130dBc routinely. Noise this low down is completely inaudible. From a listeners perspective, more phase noise is introduced by the local PLL oscillator mixer of their consumer grade receiver than from the transmitter exciter. Also DDS synthesizers are not immune to noise either. Source clock jitter will provide phase error noise on the DDS baseband output along with lousy post DSS reconstruction filtering.

    Applying modulation indices and bandwidths as required to satisfy the broadcast standards to a directly modulated crystal oscillator is not possible. This is because the motional mass of the quartz crystal is too great and cannot provide sufficient deflection to give the needed deviation. Plus the dampening effect of the motional mass acts like a low pass filter whereby the MPX signal will be filtered out. Long ago many TX manufacturers used ovenized crystals as the frequency determining component for their exciters, but had to apply phase modulation to generate the modulation indices for FM broadcast. These crystals were typicaly in the 100’s of kHz’s and fed a whole string of class-C multiplier stages to arrive at required frequency.
    GE, Gates and Harris had their own unique way of applying the phase modulation to the multiplier stages. (i.e. Serrasoid to name one)

    Leif, DDS synthesis does not use a processor running an "algorithm". It’s essentially a clocked state machine that uses a 1/4 sine wave sine look-up table to drive a D/A converter. This converter output through smoothing filters reconstructs the FM signal (much like the sound card makes the MPX signal). By taking a numeric constant (modulation point) and adding it to the internal phase accumulators will generate a phase modulated output signal (FM). Because all the modulation is done in the digital domian, it requires a CPU to prep the audio sample point (plus any MPX signal data) into the proper numeric value prior to sending it on to the DDS chip.

    Want to know more about DDS devices visit the Analog Devices Web site. They make lot’s of these kinds of chips.
    http://www.analog.com/en/rfif-component … index.html

    There is an application note that shows how to build a FM transmitter using one of their DSS chips with a companion DSP processor.

    in reply to: bessel null calibration #8448
    Sparky
    Member

    As I stated, at 10kHz RBW/VBW’s you will not see much change in the carrier null especially if your trying to see a few dB of difference. It takes only a very small amount of deviation change to go from 40dB down to 70dB + down. For example with my lab instruments I can suppress the carrier right down to the noise floor of the spectrum analyzer. But I did it using RBW of 500Hz and VBW of 100Hz (old Tek 492 analyzer) and 0.1kHz carrier deviation steps. A modulation amplitude variance of +/5mV of results in 20dB of null depth change when starting from a nulled condition.

    You need to first set your analyzer on exact center frequency of your transmitter with no modulation using the narrow RBW/VBW settings. Once you have this centered, apply the modulation tone and make adjustments to the deviation. You will see it doesn’t take much adjustment range to move through the exact Bessel null point. Using high modulation indexes, the first null point is very sharp.

    Other questions:
    1. Have you verified the generated modulation tone is actually 31185kHz? A +/-1-2 kHz variance won’t matter very much.
    2. Have you checked the spectral purity of the demodulated STL output? Additional receiver noise or STL TX or RX PLL spurii will mask your null measurement point with unwanted modulation artifacts preventing you from seeing the sharp null. This has the appearance of softening the null point leading you to believe there is no adjustment range.
    3. Is there any audio agc circuits enabled in the STL link (or exciter) that can interfere with your measurements?

    in reply to: bessel null calibration #8445
    Sparky
    Member

    40dB down doesn’t tell you enough on the first analyzer photo. One major problem I see is the two analyzer photos have different settings. The first photo has RBW/VBW’s of 3kHz, the second has RBW/VBW’s of 10kHz? You’re not consistant with your test setup comparisons to be meaningful. Peak amplitude accuracy comes at the expense of narrow RBW and VBW’s (and slow sweep speeds).

    In order to get precision measurements you need to be measuring with a RBW of 300Hz, with VBW of 100Hz. The narrower the better. Just be prepared to spend some time waiting for the slow sweep speeds to write the trace to the screen. The reward for your patience is very accurate amplitude measurements of the carrier null. Remember you don’t need to see all the modulation sidebands during these measurements (hence your widebandwidth settings), just the energy right at the carrier center freq, +/-100Hz. So zoom into this region and wait.

    in reply to: Breakaway Live .82 issue #8180
    Sparky
    Member
    quote :

    The worst thing about being an engineer is that when you’ve done everything right, when everything works perfectly, nobody even notices!

    This is so true… 😉

    Actually it always turns into "what can you do next" without even a moments thought to what was just done.
    (sigh) … the banal existence of us lowly engineers’…

    in reply to: Stereo Enhancer in BBP / Live #7787
    Sparky
    Member

    You keep this up and I won’t have anything left in my air chain rack to impress people with 😉 :mrgreen:
    The next rack slot to be vacated will be where the Orban 222A spatial enhancer currently lives when you release this latest addition.

    OK uber coder… here’s another feature to think about.
    How about adding a stereo synthesizer to convert mono source material into a pseudo stereo image… i.e. Orban 275A?

    in reply to: The BEST MPX ..FM modulation ever ? #7414
    Sparky
    Member

    Camclone,

    You need to be very careful in making off air comparisons because it is easy to come to the wrong conclusions.
    First, you are really not comparing apples to apples in your measurements. Did you sample exactly the same piece of audio from both signals for the measurement?
    Did you have exactly the same RF signal levels for the measurements, free from multipath or synchronous AM modulation artifacts?
    My conclusion is you did not, which is understandable, it’s hard to do. However if you look at the "other" stations signal sample it becomes obvious there is little or no main carrier audio modulation.

    My impression is what you are seeing are a couple of possibilities.
    1. You may be seeing synchronous AM artifacts at the receiver causing phase distortion. This type of receiver distortion generates higher second harmonic energy (from 19kHz pilot) internally whereby giving you the illusion of "higher" 38kHz energy. Proper tuners for off air modulation meter are very carefully engineered to be wideband and have a very high degree of phase linearity to accurately measure signal levels. Consumer tuners are not nearly this well designed.

    2.The other station’s Omnia MPX modulator has a phase imbalance issue whereby the 38kHz subcarrier is not completely nulled out. Remember the 38kHz subcarrier is a double sideband suppressed carrier. This means that in an ideal system if there is no audio energy on the main carrier, there should be zero 38kHz energy present in the subcarrier spectrum.

    3. The other station’s transmitter has inter-stage coupling problems. As I once wrote about in a previous forum post to you, synchronous AM artifacts of this type are common problems with multi stage transmitters. In this situation if the coupling is skewed (or tilted) the 19kHz pilot tone is getting distorted creating a rise in second harmonic energy in the 38kHz spectrum, regardless if the MPX modulator is perfectly nulled out.

    in reply to: High Pass Filter Question #7122
    Sparky
    Member
    quote :

    …the Bose Wave Radio impresses a lot of people (myself included) by how low the bass goes. Then, I ran a sweep. It stops around 65 Hz.

    Interesting. Is this 65Hz cutoff based on speaker cone physical displacement, or does it include enclosure resonance?

    in reply to: High Pass Filter Question #7119
    Sparky
    Member

    30Hz is also the lower technical limit as it applies to most, if not all, government licensing standards ratified for FM broadcasting.

    in reply to: A New …New York preset with 7 or 8 bands ? #6824
    Sparky
    Member
    quote :

    Well then doing the math…what does 31 bands offer?

    Marketing gimicks and advertizing one upmanship… total BS. 🙄
    Remember it was done because they can not because it was needed.

    in reply to: MPX Cable #6567
    Sparky
    Member
    quote :

    how much can be long the mpx cable? 15 meters are too much?

    This would depend upon the output drive capability of the sound card, termination impedance at the transmitter input, and the quality of the cable used. All shielded cables exhibit distributed capacitance along its entire length that acts like a low pass filter (high frequency roll off or tilt). For 15m length you will want to use a cable with the lowest capacitance per unit length. In addition you will have to measure MPX tilt again at the transmitter and adjust BBP for a flat response. By doing so will compensate for the induced tilt from the cable capacitance.

    in reply to: tornado split #6650
    Sparky
    Member

    A very good example of BBP misuse and abuse. I never made it through a single song before I tuned out. My poor bleeding ears… (and I like Greek music too)

    Hey Camclone… what’s the point?
    In case you haven’t noticed there is a very powerful tool that’s standard issue for all media players each listener has control over…. A VOLUME CONTROL !!!
    You don’t have to turn it up for them by crushing the audio into sonic mush!

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 41 total)