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[quote author=”Th3_uN1Qu3″] It’s funny – we go undoing other people’s clipping and processing, just so we can process and clip again before it hits the air. That’s kinda counter-productive if you ask me.[/quote]
It’s unfortunate that mastering has gotten so bad that we even need something like the Omnia.9’s Undo feature, I’ll grant you that, but not counter-productive. Here’s why:
Clipping already present in the source material (as the result of an agressively mastered CD, for example) puts traditional broadcast processors at an immediate disadvantage because they must pass all of that distorted audio through as-is. They have no way to "fix" it. The processor then clips it again, and adds clipping-induced distortion and artifacts of its own.
The 9’s Undo section ensures that the audio being fed to the subsequent processing stages is much cleaner and more dynamic than the souce audio, so right off the bat, the processor has better material to work with. Indeed, hearing music after Undo but before any processing whatsoever is testimony to its effectiveness – it already sounds better than the source material. Beyond that, though, its psychoacoustic composite embedder handles the clipping in such a way that you don’t hear clipper-induced artifacts like you do with other boxes – and there’s plenty of clipping going on.
Does good-sounding audio at the processors input matter? Yes! Listen to well-mastered audio (Steely Dan, Dire Straits) through ANY processor compared to the modern hyper-compressed stuff and there’s certainly a difference. Undo does a remarkable job of turning bad-sounding audio into something quite listenable.
Jim
I, too, like Zenith for live sound. I’m also fond of Magnifying Glass with a very slow speed setting. I use both of them regularly. This is a great application for Breakway Live 🙂
Jim
This is good stuff, Jesse.
Very consistent spectrally source-to-source. Very easy to listen to long-term without fatigue. Love the way it handles longer-term AGC tasks – 2:48:56 comes to mind (the "break" in Nights in White Satin). Good to hear a preset that lets the music breathe a little.
I’m just listening on small speakers right now, but look forward to hearing it on something more revealing over the weekend.
I’m playing it out of Audition to put an eye on the waveform, and it’s interesting to note that it looks "tighter" than it sounds, which is one of the hallmarks of good processing.
I would have sworn that there’s some spatial enhancement had you not already told us there isn’t any. To me, getting that effect with just dynamics processing is an accomplishment in and of itself.
Can’t wait to see it released! Hope it’s coming to Live and BAE, too…. 🙂
Jim
This is certainly a revealing and interesting set of comparisons. Some initial observations, referencing the comments/claims made in the .pdf from Orban that comes with the files:
1) Alive and Kicking: The snare sounds less grungy, but I wouldn’t say it cuts through much better. The cymbals are brighter but hardly open. You wouldn’t confuse it for an Omnia on the dial. Maybe a little less smearing, but not by much.
2) Electrical Storm: Significantly less IM in the synth part, and far less crunch in the glock – but it’s still there in several of the notes. Granted, a difficult song, but certain notes still sound awfully crunchy to me. The real surprise here is not how good it sounds out of the 8600, but how awful it sounds out of the 8500.
3) Every Time You Go Away: Perhaps less IM from the 8600, but not a ton of difference in transient punch. The 8600 is brighter, but not in a very pretty way.
4) Movin’ On: Perhaps the biggest and most pleasant comparison in any of the samples. The bass isn’t as clipped in the 8600 as in the 8500, and there’s a pleasant lack of mid-bass IM.
5) Sailing: Not too shabby. The vocals are indeed more open with greater transient punch, and I’ll give them a thumbs up on the bell tree. Other high frequency material doesn’t sound substantially different though.
6) Starchild: Goodness, the 8500 smears those hats, doesn’t it? Makes the 8600 sound a lot prettier by comparison. I like the dynamics of the synth towards the end better with the 8600, too. As in "Electrical Storm," though, what really surprises me is how poor the 8500 sounds, not how stellar the 8600 sounds.
7) Wake Me Up When September Ends: I’m amazed at how well the 8600 cleans up the horrific mastering of this song. Kudos here. The snare sounds nicer in the 8600 too, but I’m distressed at how badly it hole punches and makes the acoustic guitar do a disappearing act.
8) With or Without You: See #2 and #6. The 8600 doesn’t distort the guitar as much, but heaven help us, the 8500 just shreds it, doesn’t it?
Maybe I’m being too hard here, as these are very difficult songs, and the 8600 does clean things up nicely in comparison. I’d really like to hear some Omnia 6 and 11 clips of the same material, alongside BBP and Vorsis.
Feedback welcome 🙂
Jim
I understand for the sake of keeping the preset menu leaner and cleaner it makes sense to eliminate some of the "obsolete" presets when newer ones become available, but I for one am grateful for the option to include them if I so choose by editing the .ini file.
"Obsolete" shouldn’t be confused with "bad". I use the orignal Zenith in BAE the vast majority of the time, and never thought I needed an improved version, though I do like the new Zenith in Live better. (You’re spoiling us, Jesse…)
The two Rusticity presets are fun, too, and Magnifying Glass remains one of the best-sounding, detail-enhancing presets past or present (IMHO). I like that it leans more on the multi-band compressors than the AGC, a strategy I prefer personally.
Jim
Thanks Jesse – I was able to get in later that day. Enjoyed the thread, and signed up on radio-info. Great site. I had no idea it was out there, so thanks indirectly for the "discovery."
Jim
I’d love to listen to the stream but I can’t see a link anywhere…. I’m probably having a "moment" and missing the obvious 🙂
Jim
quote :Are we talking new features or brand new members to the Breakaway family? Say full control? 😉 Hopefully there will be an software version including full control and not just in the hardware box version.PLEASE say there will be a full-control software version available… I’ll be good this year, I promise!
Jim
I’m sure there are some presets that re-equalize better than others, but in general terms, increasing the "power" gives you more spectral consistency cut-to-cut.
I would venture a guess that behind the scenes, thresholds and ratios are being adjusted to make this happen, but I don’t have any concrete knowledge to back up that supposition.
It is evident, however, by observing the way the amount of available gain reduction increases as you increase power that the compressors will ride gain over a wider range, allowing for more spectral consistency.
Anyone with greater access/familiarity to how the core works care to confirm that theory or take me to task on the guesswork? 🙂
Jim
Thank you both very much – off to download the latest and greatest. Got my license key today too 🙂
Jim
Hi Jesse – Hi Dr.
I’m using version 0.90.77 of Live.
I used Microsoft Process Explorer to track exactly when the spikes were occurring, and what program was running at that very moment.
I confirmed the theory by temporarily bypassing that portion of AVG, and the problem instantly disappeared. Re-enable AVG, and the problem returns.
After a little casual research, it seems this is not an uncommon issue with AVG. What I find really weird, though, is that BAE runs without a hitch. Only Live is affected.
I’m giving Avast! a whirl at the moment, and so far, so good. It’s not interfering with Breakaway at least…
Jim
Wait a sec…
Are you saying that with VL and Winamp, you could process audio files?!
That would mean you could customize a library to your liking and enjoy the processed sound in an environment where you can’t run VL or Breakaway – iPod, car, etc…
Am I hearing that right? Because that would be very, very cool… details?!
Jim
This is my personal laptop used purely for my own personal entertainment in my home studio and home theatre.
I could get away with using BAE, but I’m upgrading to Live because of the incredible PEQ Live offers.
So, yes, I’ll need to keep antivirus software up and running, and will take your suggestion and look into Sophos 🙂
Thank you!
Jim
Thanks for the clarification, Audio!
I would suggest that you begin with adjusting only the levels of the jingles downward as Jesse and Timmy have described here.
See if that takes care of the problem first.
If my "theory" that the jingles have substantially higher average levels (not just peak levels) this might go far enough to address the issue without having to do anything with the music library.
Just my two cents 🙂 Keep us posted though?
Jim
