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God jul och ett gott nyt år!
[quote author=”Leif”]For Closing Time, I know this song very well. If you want the intro quieter than the rest, the key is to process less. Have you tried Reference Settings with bass boost adjusted for taste?[/quote]The problem is that the reduction of "Range" and "Power" also reduces the punch (the subjective loudness) for the loud parts.
So it does not work (from the point of hearing, maybe technically) in the way: process less and you have more dynamic.
You have to try to find the small sweet spot (might be different for different songs).
For me this sweet spot for "Closing Time" with "Reference Setting" is this:
Final Drive: 0 dB
Range: 25
Power: 35
Speed: 80
Bass Cut: -15
Bass Shape: 0But I have found another preset that I prefer for this song and almost all other music where the less you process (sliders down) the more dynamic remains.
The problem is:
It is an old and outdated version of "Twente".
I don’t like the changes that were made to "Twente".
Too much bass (even when I use Bass Cut -50).
Leif, I hope that one day you give us a little tool to overwrite presets in newer versions of Breakaway (Live and BP) with presets from older versions.
I would like to use latest BA Live beta versions (0.90.9x), but I need the old (removed) "Twente" preset. 😥
I cannot check all older beta versions to find the version when "Twente" changed.
I found the old BA Live beta 0.90.69 (in this version "Twente" is perfect for my needs).
What was the last beta version (higher than build 69) where "Twente" has the same old characteristics ?The sweet spot for "Closing Time" (and other music I like to listen to) with the old "Twente" preset from build 69 is this:
Final Drive: – 3.0 dB
Range: 0
Power: 0
Speed: 0
Bass Cut: -40
Bass Shape: -50
(+ "roll-off" enabled at 12 !)Maybe, it is possible to add a "Twente Classic" preset in future releases ?
The old "Twente" preset enhances my old music noticeable, but without too much changes to newer tracks.
I have just tried this old "Twente" setting for "Pink Floyd – Astronomy Domine" ("The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn" album).
For this peace of music it works even as a dynamic range expansion (I know BA in first place is meant to do it the other way round – but: so what ?).
It seems as if this old "Twente" preset ist the Holy Grail of one-click audio remastering.
To reduce the noise floor, the only thing I have added is Stereotool DSP (all off – except the noise gate at 1 %), because in BA Live build 69 the general denoise option for all presets was not implemented yet.Why does "roll-off" (BA Live) even works, when I don’t use bandwith limitation (-> Full) ?
I thought (reading the pop up info) that the "roll-off" only works when bandwith limitation is used ?
It is not a problem for me.
On the contrary I like this extra option to reduce high frequencies.
Most of the time I have "roll-off" enabled at 12.[quote author=”Leif”]Reference Settings is what I use for myself when listening to music — any more than that and it’s too much for me personally.[/quote]
Good to know, that I am not the only one.
If (old !) "Twente" preset would not exist, I would use "Reference Settings" too.
For me personally the only way to use presets like "Twente’s" big and loud brother "Plutonium" is to turn down almost all settings sliders close to zero (max. 25 for listening situations when I need a limited dynamic range for a wide variety of different sources).[quote author=”Leif”]This is one of the side-effects of real-time processing — the audio processor adjusts continuously to the incoming audio, but cannot know what comes ahead. It depends greatly on the settings used, though, and certain presets do this more than others.[/quote]For many songs Breakaway works great, but there are always a few situations/songs where it fails.
For example, do you know/have "Semisonic – Closing Time" album version ?
The AGC in combination with MBcomp always (with different presets and different settings) does too much for the intro part, so that you instinctively turn down the volume (otherwise the intro would be too loud)
And when the main part (00:57) kicks in, it is much too quiet (near to the original unprocessed volume level).
The same happens with Stereotool and its presets.
Leif, if you have this song, can you hear what I mean and do you agree ?
What would be the best preset/setting to avoid it ?
Do you see any chance to create a new preset in the future to minimize this side-effect (without loosing the main processing characteristics ?) ?
I know it depends on the original mastering charcteristics.
So maybe there are always a few songs with a too special mastering, where it is recommended to bypass Breakaway’s (or any other further) processing ?@ Benny
If you want to use the TT-DR VST-Plug-in with Breakaway you can use this free VST To DSP wrapper:
http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/programs/winamp/You can load this DSP adapter in Breakaway Live as "Encoder Plug-in" if you want to see the signal post Breakaway processing.
But it might be necessary to load the VST Host DSP and then the TT-DR VST-Plug-in with winamp to properly save the dsp_vst.fxp INI file (inside winamp plugin folder !).It’s possible to clone the Winamp VST Host (or Bridge).
This way you can use a second instance of the TT-DR VST-Plug-in (or any other VST-Plug-in) as an "Effect Plug-in" before Breakaway’s processing to see the difference.
Using most of Breakaway’s presets will result in steady RED !
Example:
viewtopic.php?p=2997#p2997Besides questions of (technical) accuracy:
The TT-DR Meter and Breakaway are philosophic opponents that cannot agree about how much dynamic is necessary to define the difference between music and steady noise.Three questions:
What is your subjective taste ?
What do you want or need to do in different situations ?
And what is the best way (the best tool) to do it without (too much) negative side effects.
So don’t get me wrong:
If you want (or must) reduce the dynamic range than Breakaway is a high quality tool to do it.[quote author=”Leif”]OK, I listened to the Genesis cut, and you know, I didn’t think Plutonium did badly at all![/quote]If I had no other choice but to listen to the Plutonium or the Twente output with default (?) settings, I would pick Twente.
I agree with you that Twente is less aggressive.
Plutonium creates a loss of definition.
I think (it sounds) as if Plutonium runs in trouble especially if there is much FX like reverbs and/or delays.
Personally, I would not use either Plutonium or Twente with default settings (but this would be a discussion of subjective taste – so please ignore this statement).Back on topic:
I have tried to recreate your samples.
You have named these MP3s "WAV".
320 kbps, ok.
But you must have used some kind of bandwith limitation and low-pass roll-off (plus NR ?) !?
I have done frequency/spectral analysis/comparison with your samples and with my own WAVs.
I don’t know if I should show these spectral waveform analysis examples (CE 2.1) here ?These WAVs (processed with Plutonium and Twente with default settings but without any bandwith limitation and low-pass roll-off) have a really aggressive spectral structure (much more than your samples). 😥
So what were your bandwith limitation settings ?The problem:
Out of the box (after Breakaway installation) there is no bandwith limitation applied.
Listen to the WAV output with Plutonium (default settings) is more or less very frustating (if you use good quality monitoring system).
With limited (PC, mobile or whatever) speakers it could be benefit.Personally, I would (if I had no other choice of processing) use Twente with range and power (even speed) at zero or at the maximum 25, but this would be another discussion of subjective taste and personal conceptions of music – I’m a musician – so please ignore this statement, too.
Album:
Genesis – Invisible Touch
The original audio CD version (from 1986 – I bought this CD in 1991 ?)
Not the remastered version (2007) !
Ripped from CD with Exact Audio Copy (EAC) to WAV.Song:
Tonight Tonight Tonight
Just listen the first 10 seconds using Plutonium preset (default settings).While using the BA Live trial version (90.83 ?) I have noticed this distortion too with Plutonium and some other presets.
Leif try these:
The Beatmasters – Ska Train (album version or radio edit)
Genesis – Tonight, Tonight, Tonight (album version)Of course people using BA for broadcast purpose need a loud and steady output.
I forgot to mention the question about (private users) the sources and their quantity you process:
Radio broadcasts (pre-processed) ?
Digital or analog ?
Lossy downloads ?
Or Audio CDs ?
More new productions (loud) or more old productions with (too much ?) wide dynamic range ?A really big problem today:
The danger of independant chains of processing:
Music that is (heavy) processed and processed and processed again.
That is the reason why I really like to use two instances of the TT Dynamic Range Meter (sandwiching the processing) to see the dynamic caracteristics of sources and the processed output.It’s interesting which presets are prefered.
But I think it would be better to have more information.Do people use the presets (they voted for here) with the default values (range, power, speed, etc.) or do they tweak these settings (how much) ?
More processing ?
Or less processing ?
I know people that prefer very soft processing values especially for range, power and speed to preserve a wider dynamic range.
For example with some presets like "Twente" it is even possible to expand the dynamic range when you use values close to zero for range, power and speed (for people that are tired of dead loud radio broadcasts) in opposite to Breakaway’s original purpose.Maybe the favorite presets (with most votes) are differently tweaked ?
Some presets benefit more from tweaking the default (50) values than others.
It is like comparing apples and oranges.So it is really difficult to draw conclusions which unpopular presets can be dropped
in future releases.Thank you Scotty !
[quote author=”ScottyJames”]the colours of the centre meters change relative to the amount of dynamic range you have. In my shot they are red as the range has reduce to 4db. I think I was demonstrating it with various presets in Breakaway.[/quote]Yes, of course I know this relation.
My question (talking about colours) was misleading.
I use two instances of the DR Meter VST plug-in (as sandwich for my processing VST/DX/DSP plug-in chains) for a few months.
I was thinking about the difference in design (2D look vs. 3D look).
Finally I have found two different versions of the plug-in in my raw download archive.
I had downloaded these before the PMF decided to disable the free public download of the plug-ins.Now I know that I have used version 1.4a (where the graphic elements have a 2D look).
The version 1.0 (you have used) has graphic elements with a 3D look.
Version 1.0 is not a predecessor of version 1.4a – F. Tischmeyer explained the difference in the PMF forum hosted on 96khz.de:
http://96khz.de/index.php?module=Forum& … c&topic=26
The version 1.4a (bundled with the offline meter) is based on the initial version by Algorithmix.
The (so called) 1.0 version was created by Brainworx.
Version 1.0 is more or less the successor of version 1.4a 💡 😈
I prefer the look of version 1.0 (3D).
Here before (using version 1.4a):
Now I use version 1.0:
@ ScottyJames (and all others)
What version of the DR Meter (VST) have you used ?
1.4a or is it the 1.0 (I cannot find) ?
Because my version 1.4a has other colours.
Have you created your own Special Edition of this plug-in by editing the .bmp files ?
Do you have a download link for me ?Yours (Scotty’s):
My version 1.4a looks this way:
I have just noticed that on 96khz.de it looks like yours, but on http://www.dynamicrange.de it (the flash animation) looks like my version 1.4a !
❓I don’t want to try this beta.
But it’s good to know that we are close to a new update release. 🙂
Thank you Leif !I hope that the "Magnifying Glass" preset is not removed !? ❓
I have tried the trial version of BA Life and noticed, that this preset does not exist (anymore ? so was it removed ?) in BA Life.Please keep "Magnifying Glass" in BA Enhancer.
What of the newer (Live) presets comes close to "Magnifying Glass" ?
Is it "Twente" ?
Will it ("Twente") be a new preset (or replacement for "Magnifying Glass") in the next BAE major update release ?@ Leif
Then delete your attachment and release the update for Breakaway Audio Enhancer !
[quote author=”Edgar”]Hello Leif,any news about the next BAE release and the 3rd party volume control?[/quote]
[quote author=”Leif”]Yes! I have added this feature to Breakaway Live already, so Breakaway Personal is not far behind.[/quote]Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:29 pm
I can understand that you have your focus on Breakaway Professional and Live,
because these customers have paid more and will pay more.
But I don’t understand why you tell people (not for the first time) that the next
Breakaway Audio Enhancer update is coming soon, though you don’t have the time to work on it:
[quote author=”Leif”]Next BAE release = high probability of being within 2 months.[/quote]Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:23 am[quote author=”Leif”]…Breakaway will see a quiet input signal and do it’s job and increase the level again, until it runs out of range.
In fact, this very situation is the reason the volume controls are disabled by default, as conceptually, it cannot work. And, when things fail even in theory, practice doesn’t stand a chance.[/quote]In practice if the impact to the processing would be that high you describe it, then it would be better
to deinstall Breakaway Audio Enhancer.
For example many german DVB-S radio stations are working with peak levels at -7 dBFS or even -9 dBFS and with extreme dynamic compression processing.
These audio signals are very different from high quality CDs (with a good dynamic range).
In practice this is making a bigger difference than the change of the input level before Breakaway (enabled with the BA pipeline config tool).
In theory – using extreme decreasing levels above a -20 dB range, of course have a severe impact.
The more you decrease, the more Breakaway’s internal processing will be irritated.
But in practice (watching and switching TV or radio channels with DVBViewer for example) the level decreasing and increasing range for the input is very narrow, more or less +- 6 dB ![quote author=”aleph99″]And I do miss the round full bass Breakaway provides. I guess to an audiophile’s ears it would look (or sound) a bit excessive, but it does sound good in my earphones. Would you know of a way to accomplish something similar using one of the tools in the chain?
Thanks.[/quote]Search for other Winamp DSPs (EQs) and add it to the chain.
It seems as if you have to rebuild the chain after every reboot (or restart of winamp ?) step by step:
This is not intended.
The whole DSP chain should be saved automatically by Winamp (and the stackers by saving ini files).
And this is the way it works for me.
There might be a corruption of an INI file of the stackers.
Check and identify every INi file of the stackers inside your Winamp (plugin) folder and delete them all.
Then rebuild the chain.
I remember that the INI files of MuchFX and DSP Stacker 1.6 can corrupt if Winamp encounters an unexpected error or an unattended closing.
Deleting the INIs should help to start with a fresh and stable basis.What Winamp version do you use ?
2.9x or a new 5.5x version ?
What is your operating system ?I use Winamp 2.95 on a Win XP Pro SP2 system.
[quote author=”kmoksha”]Since would like a quicker way of altering the sound level preferably from the players original sound control.[/quote]You don’t have to wait for an update.
There is a way, kmoksha ❗ :
viewtopic.php?p=1194#p1194
viewtopic.php?p=922#p922
This way you cannot change Breakaway’s output volume, but you can decrease (and increase after you have decreased) the input for Breakaway.
It is not a perfect solution, because of the dynamic processing logic (relative enhancement of lower volumes), but it does what you want:
You can use the normal volume controls of your applications (the same way it had worked before you have installed Breakaway).
