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I’m going to post some Undo clips in here as I find stuff that I think is extraordinary… not so much for Undo (Undo is always extraordinary), but for what most people’s perception is about what can and can’t be fixed with particular source audio.
so… here’s the first 🙂 not clipped, and not horribly squished on the master, but it is squished within the mix. good example of how Undo can bring an amazing amount of detail out of a recording that many people (including me) would already consider "OK"… that is, before they get spoiled by Undo.
http://masterfulaudio.com/forumfiles/ce … /magic.wav
I used 7dB of headroom for this one. First 60 seconds is the original, last 60 seconds is Undo.
I should also note that this is the current Undo preset I’m working on, and I’ve only just begun to really understand what can be done to tailor the dynamics and detail with it. It’s very versatile in fact, with over 100 settings. I’m not sure if they are all going to be exposed in the Omnia.9… but that just gives you an idea of what learning curve I’m dealing with for the last few months.
Not only will my preset/s (and Leif’s) get better, but the processing itself will too, and there was already one change I know of (that effects highly clipped audio).
Let’s hear it for Leif… he’s a magic man. 8)
Jesse (and Leif), one question… Will Undo also be available as software only? I ask this because not only because it sounds great, but I just started building a new database with .WAV files. If Undo will be available as software (part of BBP or separate) I won’t have to bother using SeeDeClip or Ozone RX declipper on the files and it will save me a sh*tload of time 🙂
Listening on the video to "The Donnas" song even through that little camera microphone was an incredible difference, as is this Heart Magic Man version….just amazing! Finally we can listen to music the way it should be!! 😀
@ the S sound… There is a crash that I’ve discovered that’s being fixed (of course) by Leif (top priority) which is preventing me from setting two things in particular which would not only partially prevent that (one half) but enhance other transients more consistently (the other half). So I’ve had to compromise on the settings a little bit.
Also to remember… this isn’t setup ideally for how it would be if it were a stand-alone end user Hi-Fi product. It is absolutely intended and optimized for use before broadcast audio processing. Not necessarily anything heavy, in fact I like using it the best with the most open preset for Breakaway/Omnia.9 dynamics core there is so far… Passive Aggressor. Just the same, that does still allow you to "flub" certain things like that, in the name of greater consistency and improved accomplishment of goals.
I would rather upload these samples without any additional processing although, so people really get an idea of the output of the Undo processing, and can also try the before & after with their own existing broadcast audio processing. You *will* hear it improve over the course to this summer, and I’m happy to start sharing where it’s already at. Remember, this has never been done before, and despite over a decade of on-air experience of Leif, and half a decade of R&D & use of this kind of expansion (although not automated) by myself in my own mastering…
(drum roll please) Undo is not even 3 months old, as of the time I’m writing this post. It’s totally incredible what Leif has put together here, in such a short time, and is a massive testament to how awesome his new processor creation framework is. Even the "development GUI" itself looks like a finished product, which is a joy to use even without hearing what it’s doing.
If you do hear anything else "odd" like that, please talk about it here. There could be stuff that we’re either not noticing, or not "annoyed" by, like some other people would be. This is a valuable part of the process of improving this component.
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As far as if Undo will be included in the software products… that is the wish of Leif the last time he mentioned it. I can’t say for sure of course, but he wanted to. There are some limitations to that although. Part of it is licensed, so at least part of it will never make it to the very bottom rung products. But I would expect to see it fully (no promises) in products like Breakaway Live and Breakaway Broadcast.
I guess it is based on this kind of technical concept !?:
❓You need two envelope follower circuits with different attack times to detect the transients of the input signal and two envelope follower circuits with different release times to detect the sustain of the input signal.
The difference between both envelope follower circuits (one for transients and one for sustain) generates two control signals (one for transients and one for sustain).
Then you have to clone the input signal and multiply one instance with the control signal for transients and the other instance with the control signal for sustain.
This way you split the original input signal in two different signals.
One signal contains only transients and the other only sustain.So, finally you can re-mix these two signals.
For a dynamic (upward-) expansion you add more gain to the transient signal.That’s it (in my theory).
By the way:
Compare the dynamic range of the original (first 60 seconds) and the processed version (e.g. with TT DR VST meters or the offline tool – important: you have to split it and normalize both signals to approx. 0 dB) !
This kind of dynamic (upward-) expansion processing proofs that such a (green !) signal sounds much better (more vivid and punchier) than a traditional compressed and peak limited signal ever can.guys in the market playing crap chr use Izotope RX declip function to tame horrible cd’s.works well for them,otherwise it sounds like shredded wheat in the 6exi.seedeeclip is great as well..I heard one the other day they must have missed,GAWD awful…
SeeDeClip is indeed great. Been using it for years in mastering (unfortunately). Now I’m even more glad to have introduced it to Leif. 😉
I know Izotope RX Declip and SeeDeClip.
But the audible results are very different than what we hear with this UNDO.Most stunning of UNDO processing in magic.WAV is the new punch and presence of drum sounds.
Jesse, please I would like to hear what this UNDO can do with ‘Greenday – American Idiot’.
This album has horrible clipping and a DR5 (dynamic range) value analyzed by the TT DR offline meter.
So, please UNDO track 1 (‘American Idiot’) in the same manner as the magic.WAV:
60 seconds original + 60 seconds with UNDOThis would be a very interesting torture test for UNDO.
(maybe in combination with declipping before UNDO)both with 9dB of headroom (both have "language" you would get fined for in some countries btw)
http://masterfulaudio.com/forumfiles/ce … /idiot.wav
http://masterfulaudio.com/forumfiles/ce … ussell.wavJesse, thank you very much !
I don’t like the original version, because the drum sounds have too much compression (compressed and limited to death – Keith Moon is crying in his grave).
Sorry Jesse, but the UNDO version I don’t like, too.
Now the drums (especially snare) are much too aggressive and dominant IMO (it really hurts my ears).I guess if you would use half of the expansion factor it could sound much better.
[quote author=”michi95″]Now the drums (especially snare) are much too aggressive and dominant IMO (it really hurts my ears). I guess if you would use half of the expansion factor it could sound much better.[/quote]
Did you do the comparison through your current processing?Remember, this isn’t optimized for regular listening without further spectral balancing. If there were ever a version of Undo that didn’t have any processing after that, it would take care to not alter the overall spectral balance. This version doesn’t need to be concerned with such a thing since that is going to happen via whatever dynamics processing follows it.
After decent processing, what you’ll end up with is all of the improved dynamics, but the average loudness *should* be decently close to where it was before Undo.
That’s why I asked that any critical listening be done through processing. You should hear what Undo does to some hiphop kick drums. 😉 It creates totally disproportionate bass compared to the original, but Undo is just doing what it’s supposed to be doing, in this case. Any track with a huge amount of bass should be run through processing in order to get a flatter spectral balance on air (or whatever the target spectral balance may be).
I think you understand what I’m getting at, right?
So after comparing the two, through processing, which do you like better? And does the frequency space the snare occupies sound too quiet while the snare isn’t hitting? That last question is really what you’ll be listening for while you adjust Undo… and the processing that follows it.
[quote author=”JesseG”]I think you understand what I’m getting at, right?[/quote]Aha, ok now I understand.
Undo is not meant as a standalone dynamic remastering (wonder) tool.
It is only one step of (pre-)processing to prevent further damages to already heavy limited material by adding more headroom.
➡ You should not eat a meal before the whole cooking (process) is done ! 😆Well it’s more than that. It actually does remove audible clipping distortion, and it actually does add more impact to the sound. It also adds more detail to the transients, and it adds ti in a way that increases the overall consistency.
Actually, the amount of consistency that was added, even without any further processing, to much of the source material, was something that was kind of shocking to Leif & I.
Here’s one example of Undo through processing, I don’t think I need to or want to do any more… You guys have plenty of processing to play with in that regard. 😉
http://masterfulaudio.com/forumfiles/ce … iot-pa.wav
It’s the current Passive Aggressor with the final drive tweaked for Undo. Since Undo is adding real dynamics that get passed through *some* presets to the final limiter and/or clipper, even after adjusting the average loudness, I can actually reduce the final drive and get an even more dynamic final sound without losing any consistency at all. In fact overall gaining consistency.That’s the true beauty of Undo that won’t be realized by the scene until it’s available on starts being put on air in people’s markets… is that it enables you to use less peak limiting and still end up sounding as loud as everyone else, but with a less squished sound (of course) and also more impact because of it. When combined with Leif’s composite clipper, as you heard even on a phone microphone, the combination is nothing short of game changing.
With the current state of modern music, there literally is not even a point in turning down the peak limiting. Removing distortion from the broadcast clippers is a great step to bring the processing "up to par". New methods like the Omnia.11’s psychoacoustic density detection used to slow down the limiting is pushing the bar up just as much as Undo is. Those are two huge things that I personally would love to see shared between the 9 and 11. Undo already uses very similar technology for its dynamics detection, so I think it’ll be sooner than later that the 9 (at least) has some form of density based compression and limiting. (i know that it’s important for both, especially the faster the compression used)
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anywho… on that WAV file above in this post… what you wanna listen for is the snare consistency as it goes from the verse to the chorus. in the original clip, you REALLY hear the life get sucked out of it. in the Undo clip you hear the snare stay almost the same. (there’s two updates from Leif that I don’t have yet which make it stay exactly the same, or more-so and i can relax my settings a tad and get EVEN MORE consistency too)
what’s happening there is Undo is adapting to the chorus getting much less dynamic, because it’s all hitting whatever peak limiting was used much harder… and the end result is that even more peaks get added. you can see it in the waveform view, but the presets Leif & I are creating are designed to increase the perception of peaks in unison to how it increases the peak levels in each band too, so that on average it’ll respond the same to all of the core’s various presets… that way the Undo presets and Core presets can be switched between each other… vs having to be tied together, and basically not getting presets for Undo. The nice side effect of course is also… more consistency. 😉
[quote author=”JesseG”]That way the Undo presets and Core presets can be switched between each other… vs having to be tied together, and basically not getting presets for Undo. The nice side effect of course is also… more consistency. 😉[/quote]
That’s great to hear Jesse; much applause for that decision. It’s great to know that the Undo behavior can be selected separately from the processing preset; that’s quality design.
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