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Leif,
I’ve been thinking about this for awhile, so now I am sending it down the line to you.
I work for a terrestrial modern rock station, and we set our Orbans up to have a very very fast attack and medium release speed. That way, quiet passages and music beds don’t breathe or pump while gain is being applied, but surprise dynamics are immediately attenuated (thereby, avoiding the severe pump effect associated with a slow attack).
I have noticed that if you set power above 40 and leave the speed at 50 or lower, the attack does not work fast enough. Turning up the speed fixes the problem, but then you have the issue of the release working too fast, which then makes the processing audible. So what do you think of setting the attack in the rock preset to react immediately, regardless of the speed setting?
I’ve attached a file where you can hear what I am talking about. It is ‘Foo Fighters – The Pretender’. This clip is perfect because it goes from loud to soft to really loud. The first version is what I am currently running on my stream (Range 80, Power 33, Speed 65). The 2nd is running Range 80, Power 50, Speed 50. The first sounds pretty natural, still somewhat processed. The second has a lot of breathing and a definite audible attack.
(By the way, results are the same when Range is turned down).
Interested to hear what everyone thinks…
Adam
Hi Adam!
Thanks for the comments. I see (hear) what you mean. I’ve definitely adjusted for this type of phenomenon before, but it’s always a tradeoff — for the Rock preset, it may indeed make sense to have even faster surprise-response.
How does this sound? This is my new modified Rock with all sliders at 50.
[attachment=0:35vlwwp9]rock_Default.wav.mp3[/attachment:35vlwwp9]It does still have the obvious AGC medium-speed release — in this particular song it takes roughly 5 seconds to reach full level in the quiet part.
For me personally, this only bothers me in processors that *invert* dynamics, so that when the song kicks in again, the output of the processor ducks to be quieter than it was during the quiet part of the song. That, I cannot stand, so I made sure Breakaway doesn’t do that. 😉
If you want the AGC not to gain up quite as much as what it’s doing, turn down Power a bit. Faster or slower, try the Speed control.
Range does not really enter into it. If you were to prevent the AGC from gaining up simply by turning range down, it would also be unable to turn up quiet program material.
By the way, your station sounds GREAT!
I liked it before too, but it’s great now as well. What made you change away from the New York preset?
///Leif
Hey Leif,
This is similar that Volume Logic AGC comparison that I did.
My current settings are:
Reference Heavy NR
Range: 50
Power: 55
Speed: 70It sounds alright at current, but if I reduce the Speed any more, the attack is too slow and very noticeable, especially in the bass region (possibly distorted for a slight second). If I set the speed any higher, the release sounds too quick.
If I increase the Range, Power or both too high above 50, it has the same effect as the Speed being set too low.
Basically my settings are working good, but it leaves me with no room to move without the attack being too slow.
To hear an example with any song, restart Breakaway with Bypass enabled. While a track is playing, diasable Bypass and you’ll hear a loud thud of audio until the AGC settles.
Leif: to be honest, with your example mp3, I think I can still hear what Adam is talking about. It’s not as noticeable, but I think it’s still there.
Hi lpy,
indeed, very similar. I thought I addressed that issue, a 90% improvement in both Live and Broadcast.. However, I haven’t updated Personal yet, so it has yet to receive that improvement. I’ve started working on an updated version of Personal, so it’s in the pipeline (no pun intended).
I’m certainly willing to look over the Input AGC settings again.
To make sure we’re on the same page, in my latest example mp3, which part are you finding objectionable? The slow gain-up during the quiet part, or the handling of the attack when everything kicks in again? Both?
Distortion is part of the original track by the way — one of the loudest mastered tracks I’ve ever seen.. It pushes the Input AGC down below -8, that’s rare! I’m sure it’ll be the norm soon enough 🙄.
Regarding starting with bypass enabled — this works for Personal and Live, but not for Broadcast, since Broadcast keeps the core running even in bypass mode. (Since pre-emphasis + the clipper must still run even in bypass, the core is a non-issue in comparison, so why not).
Best,
///LeifHi Leif,
The part i find objectionable in your example is right on 0:15 when it kicks in.
I’ve made a little (crappy) graph to explain what I hear visually. I love the way everything else with Breakawaky Live works (well a Leif stereo enhancer dsp would be good 😛 but there’s no rush for that), it’s just the AGC that I reckon could be improved. With all your other projects and accomplishments, I’m sure you’ll work it out 😀
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Hi Leif,
Thanks for the detailed reply! And also, thanks for the compliment. I am pretty happy with the overall sound, but being a tweaker always makes me listen for things that could be improved.
Regarding the updated Foo Fighters cut, I can still hear the attack working a little slow, but turning up the speed could fix that. Is there a way to make the attack work as quick at 50 as it does at 70? This format is so unlike any other format in that there is such variation in the content — half of it is over the top and pegged to 0dB while the other half is relaxed and restrained. I’ve run just about every genre of music through this thing, and rock is the only one that gives me problems.
Some other songs that you can run through for a good soft to loud test…
Blink 182 – Stay Together For The Kids
Foo Fighters – Let It Die
Flobots – Rise (the intro with the bass line)
Shinedown – Fly From The Inside (again, the intro)
Apocalyptica – I Don’t CareAlso, I know exactly what you’re talking about with processors that make the louder content quieter than the quiet content. I hate that! It is such a letdown when you get to the hook and you’re ready to jam out and…. it’s only this loud. Luckily, Breakaway does not do this!
Adam
That is a PERFECT explanation, lpy. Now you’re speaking my language!
Your wish is my command 🙂. I’ll take care of it. It will have to be a compromise, but it makes sense to have at least one preset to pull the compromise in this direction.
Adam, thanks for the list! Will be very useful. And your last sentence made me chuckle 😉.. It’s so true.
Best,
///LeifOddly enough, it’s not so much that the attack is too slow. That’s part of what going on there, and as Leif said it’s a compromise that has to be made. There’s a number of things at play.
That being said, here’s an example of a new preset with considerably slow attacks, that handles it fine (only because I recently tweaked it after hearing that cut you uploaded, lol, i cheat, i really do 😆 ) But I did run the "Torture Test" over it, and it handles that flawlessly.
This is a combination of Rusticity and Plutonium, if you didn’t figure that out by the name – two imho very good sounds by myself and Leif. This sound is not possible with any other audio processor, period. There are parts of this sound that rely on some things that only Breakaway has.
It’s a work in progress, but worth showing off already. Check it out:
sounds great! Hope to see this released soon..
/Martijn
Sorry for the delay in replying.
Jesse, the preset sounds good but where is the AGC? It sounds like the dynamics are retained more than normal for audio processing. Don’t get me wrong though, it sounds great!
By the way, I’ve recently been doing some airshifts with the new processing, and Breakaway does a great job of keeping the jock on top of the music. The key, however, is making sure that the jock mic is somewhat compressed going into Breakaway (especially in modern music formats where the music is pegged), otherwise the music will overpower the jock even when it’s potted down a few dB. I’ve noticed this with every processor I’ve ever used, though 😉
Adam
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